tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post4591020550289017735..comments2024-03-28T06:26:03.040-07:00Comments on Howling Tower: A New Front in the Edition War?Stevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11677895164302972957noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-2357333850714236422012-10-22T02:16:21.464-07:002012-10-22T02:16:21.464-07:00Steve, fan of your work, but must disagree to your...Steve, fan of your work, but must disagree to your placing the blame for edition wars anywhere but the doorstep of WOTC. Although there has been much backpedaling since the early 4E days, recall that they set out to "fire" the D&D fanbase in favour of a cynical marketing ploy to grab an MMORPG audience. Now this hasn't panned out, they've come crawling back.<br /><br />This is a company who ignored fans, saying "they'll buy it because it has Forgotten Realms on the cover.". They're just reaping what they've sown, which is a whole pile of marketing theory, brand management bollocks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-68145505755901355472012-02-04T09:26:27.078-08:002012-02-04T09:26:27.078-08:00Given the non-standard alignment system in 4e, I&#...Given the non-standard alignment system in 4e, I'm not sure how 5e can give 4e players, 1e-3e players and Classic D&D players an alignment system that works for everyone. <br /><br />I did find the idea of rebooting campaign settings, to shoehorn in 4e changes a bit frustrating. Perhaps 5e could hand the power balance back to the campaign settings. Perhaps it could create a "default alignment system" and a "default cosmology", but perhaps a 5e Nentir Vale Campaign Setting and a 5e Mystara Campaign Setting could come with an "overide alignment system". Perhaps a 5e Planescape Campaign Setting or a 5e Spelljammer Campaign Setting could come with an "overide cosmology". Perhaps a series of Dragon magazines could show people how they could grab the iconic elements of old D&D campaign settings to overide a number of other core 5e rules.<br /><br />More importantly, I hope that 5e is aimed at people that don't want to play the 5e rules. I hope that classic D&D adventures are revisited with sequels that old-school fans can retroconvert (or that the retro-stats are provided as a Web Enhancement for old school fans).<br /><br />When 1e fans start to play Eberron games and Classic D&D fans start to play Ghostwalk games, that is when WotC will have won a victory against the Edition Wars for good.<br /><br />Why should we have one system and bend campaign settings, when we can instead have settings that bring along the best rules of 4e, 3e, 2e, 1e, BECMI, B/X or whatever? After all, Ghostwalk works because it bends the rules on death.<br /><br />For example, I've spoken to people that have said Council of Wyrms would not work as a 3e setting, but if the CoW setting was allowed to bend the rules, then it really should work under any edition of D&D.<br /><br />I hope that the 5e era can pull this sort of rabbit out of the hat.David Big Mac Shepheardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03268022143324138119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-81705269840537609902012-02-04T09:19:21.198-08:002012-02-04T09:19:21.198-08:00Great post Steve. I started with 2nd Edition AD&am...Great post Steve. I started with 2nd Edition AD&D and (after being dragged kicking and screaming to it) eventually migrated to 3rd Edition D&D.<br /><br />I've always thought of rules editions as a game engine and I have always been far far more interested in campaign settings than rules. Rules are just a bunch of mathematics. Campaign settings are fascinating worlds that players can explore with the assistance of a GM.<br /><br />When I migrated to 3e, I naturally wanted to see support for my favourite 2e setting (which just happens to be Spelljammer). I discovered the Wizards COMmunity Boards (later Gleemax) and ended up seeing a quite a few hostile/useless comments from 2e fans that thought I would be mad to not play SJ with the "proper rules" or from 3e fans that thought I should only be playing a setting that "was not dead".<br /><br />I like to hope that the worst of that sort of negative attitude has gone away. What annoys me about this sort of attitude is that D&D is a game (a stupid game to those that don't like it) and that we are darn lucky to live in countries where we have the ability to waste time and money playing D&D, instead of living in other countries where people - right now - are either working their butts off not to starve to death, or countries where people can get their feet blown off by landmines. D&D is a luxury. We are lucky to be able to play it. Yes, we should all play the edition of D&D we love. We should all play in the campaign setting we love. And we should either help each other, or get out of the way of each other.<br /><br />D&D fandom should be about saying: "I like to play D&D this way" - not about saying: "Everyone should play D&D this way".<br /><br />I am frustrated by WotC's move to 5e (and I say this as a 3e fan) because, in my opinion 4e just is not finished. I think that WotC have become far to obsessed with churning out the rules and that they have settled on a treadmill model that requires the destruction and recreation of D&D every 5-7 years.<br /><br />In my opinion 2e was the best era for D&D, because it had a ton of interesting campaign settings for players to explore. I like the 3e rules, but with Greyhawk getting a minor role and many other campaign settings just not getting republished, I think that 3e was an unfinished job too.<br /><br />My concern, as a customer, about 5e is not "can the designers make some cool rules". I'm sure they can do that. My concern is: "are they actually going to *finish* the job this time or are we going to be getting a 6e announcement before I see anything I want to buy?"<br /><br />I don't want D&D Next - I want D&D Eternity. I want an edition of D&D that eventually gets updated, but which stays in print. Until WotC agree to make something that is not going to expand and burst (like every other edition of D&D) I might as well stick with the rules I know and cherry-pick any good settings that 5e brings along.<br /><br />And before 4e gets wound up I really really really want to see the 4e team put out Nentir Vale as a full blown campaign setting. If 4e does not get to have a single campaign setting of its own, I will be very saddened at it passing into history with nothing to offer non-4e fans.<br /><br />I may not personally like 4e, but I am not jumping up and down with glee at its passing.David Big Mac Shepheardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03268022143324138119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-85873936776354127782012-01-22T07:02:54.526-08:002012-01-22T07:02:54.526-08:00Awesome post Steve. I can't agree with you mor...Awesome post Steve. I can't agree with you more. The official D&D forums are erupting with edition wars all over again and it makes me ill. There's so much vitriol over something that is supposed to be a fun hobby. Everyone needs to chill out and just play the game the like. BTW, your presence on the forums is greatly missed. - Style75Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-19819713682279893422012-01-16T22:57:16.071-08:002012-01-16T22:57:16.071-08:00In my opinion there's no such thing as a matur...In my opinion there's no such thing as a mature debate about role-playing. It's like trying to have a mature debate about what flavour of ice-cream is best. The mature option is not to debate.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-25399539131484091152012-01-16T14:45:31.532-08:002012-01-16T14:45:31.532-08:00Everyone is abundantly aware that they never left....Everyone is abundantly aware that they never left. When I used the word welcome, I meant I'd be glad to see them taking part in mature debate, as opposed to the teeth-grinding I do now when they bang the door off its hinges and knock over everyone's drink before even sitting down. <br /><br />I don't necessarily agree, however, that disenfranchised players are MORE important to DDN than current fans. I don't necessarily disagree, either; it's a question that deserves deeper consideration.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11677895164302972957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-91866457834104490132012-01-16T14:28:50.399-08:002012-01-16T14:28:50.399-08:00> I'd welcome all edition warriors
> ba...> I'd welcome all edition warriors <br />> back into the discussion, provided <br />> they abide by the ceasefire<br />Right--but this is part of the problem--the do not need to be 'welcomed back'--they, more then anyone, never ever left. <br /><br />Part of my point is that these people are the absolute KEY to DNDN and unless we all get much better at listening & understanding their positions we are doomed to repeat previous errors.David Given Schwarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09106539582570204636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-69635532675241548972012-01-16T13:29:20.314-08:002012-01-16T13:29:20.314-08:00I'm not sure an end to the edition wars will e...I'm not sure an end to the edition wars will ever happen, but this last round was particularly insufferable, I agree.<br /><br />Granted, I'm strongly on the 4e side (I keep my 3.5 books around, though), and was disappointed at so many people rushing to tear down a game that to my mind, was more accessible and easy to run than any edition since the '83 red box (still the gold standard for those things, though it has its quirks and flaws too.) But I do retain the hope that 5th edition can strike a balance. You could retain a lot of mechanical improvements of 4e while dialing back some of the changes and still have a very balanced accessible game.<br /><br />I guess it all depends on what this "modularity" thing translates to, if they even retain it.Evan Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17263250766060234515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-18071008554461043292012-01-16T10:46:30.675-08:002012-01-16T10:46:30.675-08:00Steve,
I am 100% behind your post. I am a long ti...Steve, <br />I am 100% behind your post. I am a long time player and long time lurker on tons of the boards. I have not posted to the boards because of the tone. It seems to me like most of the people complaining about an edition are not even playing the edition they complain about. <br />So where can we create a forum of civil disagreement that can act as a pipline to the devs? I follow SlyFlourish and Critical Hits and others. I don't always agree with their assessment of the "state of game". But I like that there is a postive message from them and that is less about "who is right" and more about how can I make "x" better by adding fun. Thanks for posting this, I believe you are not alone in your opinion here.OwwMyEyenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-13171618590757623412012-01-15T18:15:21.678-08:002012-01-15T18:15:21.678-08:00Can you please stop abusing parenthesis? Especiall...Can you please stop abusing parenthesis? Especially parenthesis inside parenthesis, it seriously undermines your entire post when it looks like a poorly-edited wiki article.Ziltnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-34512950956724982622012-01-15T18:09:47.815-08:002012-01-15T18:09:47.815-08:00@DrNick:
'I think it drives new players away t...@DrNick:<br />'I think it drives new players away to no small degree.':<br />Since arguing is a favorite pastime in many recreational activities, I kinda doubt it. I think RPGs are just seen as more contentious than say baseball card collectors, for example. Personally, I rarely(if ever) see argumentiveness among the fanbase listed as a reason someone doesn't enter the hobby. 'Studies'/polls/fora questionnaires usually seem to give:<br />1)Rules complexity, <br />2)the cost of the books/PDFs, <br />3)lack of gamers in their area to play with/teach them.<br /><br />'Imagine going into a game shop for instance and being told "No, don't buy that game. 4e is not real Dungeons and Dragons." By the clerk. Do you think this is rare? I've seen it happen.':<br />Actually, yes, I do think it'd be fairly rare.(And I don't doubt your word, DrNick, btw.[I've read of a similar instance where some *2nd Edition* players, of all things, told a kid that 4E 'sucked' while at a shop. It can go both ways, though: I've heard and read about people who wanted to play older Editions at gaming clubs and were ridiculed for not playing the latest version.] Perhaps your local store[s] have some jerks working there.) <br /><br />For two reasons:<br />1)Any employee that cost the store sales like that would almost certainly fired!<br />2) Until recently 4E was THE dominant RPG, and therefore had priority in the RPG section. What store owner would want to be stuck with all that stock?<br /><br />Also: Hasbro would probably be contacted if this practice was more widespread than the random jackhole smarting off, and they would register supreme displeasure, probably visible from space!<br /><br />@Mr. Winter:<br />(And I hope this doesn't 'sound' 'dismissive' of your concern.)<br />Wasn't this acrimony on display during the 3E era as well? 3E did well for quite a few years, despite the 'War', correct?<br /><br />'If his first impression is that most of the posts are circular, unproductive arguing, then he's not likely to come back.':<br />Always a possibility, I'll admit. But, you see raging like this(if not MUCH worse[No MAI, NO BUY!]) in other fan forums like those for video games, MMOs, CCGs, Pro Wrestlings, etc... among others. Par for the course, I'd say. More calm, reasoned debate is always good, imo. But, things get heated when people enjoy a pastime this much.<br /><br />'That's damaging to the health and image of the hobby.':<br />The same could be said of the rabid fanbases of any hobby, I'd say! I think strong disagreements will always be a factor in beloved hobbies.<br /><br />I do support your call for more understanding on all sides of the 'War', and hope to see you blog more. Especially about your past(and future) experiences in the hobby!<br /><br />Thanx!velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-66344768241700542712012-01-15T17:27:36.855-08:002012-01-15T17:27:36.855-08:00'You may find these terms offensive':
I di...'You may find these terms offensive':<br />I didn't say I found them 'offensive', but rather 'ridiculous' and 'derivative'.<br /><br />'You may not mean anything when you use the term wizbro but it has a context and is anchored firmly in a specific type of rhetoric: that is, the narrative of Wizards of the Coast as a corporate shill.':<br />It was coined 'cuz they were taken over by Hasbro(referred to sometimes as Hasborg, for its extensive game catalog.), and it reflects the amalgamation of the two once, separate entities. It's an old, established nickname that has been even used affectionately, I've found. There is a sense that Wizards is a 'mask'<br />for Hasbro's policies in certain circles, but that feeling would exist no matter what the company was called. The name T$R or Wizard$ are more in the line of calling the companies out for real or perceived 'money-grubbing'. <br /><br />'but they are in the same class as wizbro (whether you mean it that way or not).':<br />Only in the sarcastic sense, I'd say.<br /><br />'I wanted to add that the purpose for the "Corporate Shill" rhetoric that is sometimes argued is to devalue Wizards of the Coast's contributions to the brand as "money grubbing" or otherwise non art (or somehow less "pure" than previous editions of the game).':<br />Yes. And I didn't single out Wizards(or any one company in particular) for greed in my post.(Corporations exist to make money, after all). Also, I don't believe in any 'pure vision' for the game, nor that there ever was one.<br /><br />'In other words: once you "otherized" Wizards of the Coast it becomes a whole lot easier to engage in the sorts of discussions that don't get us anywhere useful.':<br />Corporations are NOT people. Dehumanization does not apply. And I'm not crusading against Wizbro. Unlike, say, some people who have suggested a 'boycott' of 5E. :-))velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-86209348034952537902012-01-15T16:44:17.440-08:002012-01-15T16:44:17.440-08:00This is the chief source of my concern. Imagine a ...This is the chief source of my concern. Imagine a newcomer to D&D, or just a newcomer to 4E (for example), who drops into an RPG forum excited to talk about his new hobby. Assume that he's not attacked for being a noob (hardly a safe assumption but part of a larger conversation than this one about netiquette). If his first impression is that most of the posts are circular, unproductive arguing, then he's not likely to come back. Maybe he'll find a more hospitable community somewhere else. Odds are he'll just go back to his friends and they'll play D&D for a few months or a year until the group breaks up and that's that; half-a-dozen people who might have become lifelong roleplayers are lost. That's damaging to the health and image of the hobby.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11677895164302972957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-51853164808754676902012-01-15T16:30:22.927-08:002012-01-15T16:30:22.927-08:00Sorry for the double reply. I wanted to add someth...Sorry for the double reply. I wanted to add something but couldn't find any way to edit my previous reply:<br /><br />I wanted to add that the purpose for the "Corporate Shill" rhetoric that is sometimes argued is to devalue Wizards of the Coast's contributions to the brand as "money grubbing" or otherwise non art (or somehow less "pure" than previous editions of the game).<br /><br />In other words: once you "otherized" Wizards of the Coast it becomes a whole lot easier to engage in the sorts of discussions that don't get us anywhere useful.DrNicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-89374197008340734172012-01-15T16:25:40.005-08:002012-01-15T16:25:40.005-08:00The bottom line, I think, is that words have meani...The bottom line, I think, is that words have meanings. You may not mean anything when you use the term wizbro but it has a context and is anchored firmly in a specific type of rhetoric: that is, the narrative of Wizards of the Coast as a corporate shill. This is why it's related to the terms Wizard$ and $e. You may find these terms offensive but they are in the same class as wizbro (whether you mean it that way or not).DrNicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-91778714288899094392012-01-15T16:10:20.026-08:002012-01-15T16:10:20.026-08:00I think most edition wars are fairly toxic to our ...I think most edition wars are fairly toxic to our little hobby. I think it drives new players away to no small degree.<br /><br />Imagine going into a game shop for instance and being told "No, don't buy that game. 4e is not real Dungeons and Dragons." By the clerk. Do you think this is rare? I've seen it happen.<br /><br />Why should a new player care about our dramas? We may be passionate and there's nothing wrong with that but there's a difference between passion and rhetoric and the line is probably analogous to the line between constructive and rude.DrNicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-5904599287710286522012-01-15T15:20:24.104-08:002012-01-15T15:20:24.104-08:00I didn't call Hasbro/Wizards "Wizard$&quo...I didn't call Hasbro/Wizards "Wizard$" nor did I mention a $e.(I in fact have NEVER used these terms anywhere, actually, these particular nicknames strike my as ridiculous[and derivative. Remember T$R?]), as ALL corporations seek to make money My usage of the term Wizbro reflects the fact that they are essentially ONE company, Wizards being ran by Hasbro, but the portmanteau used here reverses precedence, to my liking!(It sounds quite close to Hasbro, as well.) <br /><br />The effect on discourse? Little to none, I'd say.(I don't use it in a pejorative sense, but simply because I'm accustomed to it, and I find it amusing![Corporate entities are Serious Business, with logos and all, I know.. :-)]) Plus, a little mockery never hurts, imo. Keeps perspective.(I regularly make snide remarks about even my favorite edition of D&D[B/X], and its assumptions, for example... How about that 'Thief' class, eh?) I joke around like this a lot IRL, and it spills over online.<br /><br />'or if you even care and are just "japing" away at a process you've already decided is not worth your effort.':<br />Why would I be posting if I didn't care about the unfolding D&D drama? Unless you think I'm trolling or something? I would hope that my posts make clear that I'm interested in further developments in this latest chapter of D&D. And I don't believe I've given the impression that the process isn't 'worth my effort.'<br /><br />Thanx for your reply!velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-13717624648646950942012-01-15T15:01:08.630-08:002012-01-15T15:01:08.630-08:00'Wizards has a near herculean task ahead of it...'Wizards has a near herculean task ahead of it if their goal is to moderate the tone of edition warriors.':<br />I'd say trying to 'moderate the "tone"' of Edition Warriors isn't essential. People get passionate about their game, after all.(And that's ok, as long as no-one's hurling death threats, imo...) I think(and of course, I stated this before[and I hope I'm not coming off like I think I'm having a stroke of genius here, I'm sure some one else has thought this up, too...]) they could produce a way that ALL Edition aficionados can enjoy their products, like adventures and supplements that can be used intra-Edition. And, of course, their 'Core Rules' options would factor into this. With some shared experiences, ala B2 The Keep On The Borderlands, The Sunless Citadel, Keep On the Shadowfell, etc..., enmity between fans of specific 'Editions' would probably simmer down. They'd have something to reminisce about! :-)<br /><br />'I do not have a problem telling people what I think about their (sometimes terrible, ha!) opinions in a very direct way that probably fans the flames more than anything.':<br />Yeah, that happens.<br /><br />My 2¢, again!velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-8081557209086801132012-01-15T14:51:30.834-08:002012-01-15T14:51:30.834-08:00Regarding Wizbro: You have to use words with the c...Regarding Wizbro: You have to use words with the context they're given in order to have a meaningful discussion around moderating tone, don't you think?<br /><br />I'm just curious what you think the effect is of using terminology like "Wizbro", "Wizard$", "$e" or anything like that is on the discourse or if you even care and are just "japing" away at a process you've already decided is not worth your effort.DrNicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-43372950899880691572012-01-15T14:42:18.268-08:002012-01-15T14:42:18.268-08:00Fantastic Article, steve. Cirno is right that Wiza...Fantastic Article, steve. Cirno is right that Wizards has a near herculean task ahead of it if their goal is to moderate the tone of edition warriors.<br /><br />It sort of hits close to home for me personally. I'm a 4e player that is fairly active on a lot of rpg boards including on the Wizards community and while I'd like to think I'm not directly involved in any edition wars per se, I do not have a problem telling people what I think about their (sometimes terrible, ha!) opinions in a very direct way that probably fans the flames more than anything.<br /><br />Anyway, take heart. If this article alone is enough to get me to consider moderating my tone, there is no small ammount of hope for DNDNext as a whole.DrNicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-32864996470584563922012-01-15T14:26:04.250-08:002012-01-15T14:26:04.250-08:00Not to be combative, but:
Since I'm the only ...Not to be combative, but:<br /><br />Since I'm the only poster who used the term 'Wizbro', I assume this post is aimed at me. Perhaps if you'd re-read my post(which is verbose, and NOT with the intent to shout the inestimable Mr. Winter down[especially on his own blog!], but I stand by its premise that the 4e Edition Warriors clamored the most.[Due to sheer number of 4E players, and MY experience[clearly labelled in my post above]). Also, I don't lay the blame(or 'fault' ENTIRELY on 4E fans(and I don't run down the SYSTEM[which I like in Castle Ravenloft] at all!(Note my preface refencing 'old-Skool' Edition Warriors, please.) Perhaps my listing of specifics(and my sarcastic tone toward 'Editions' period.) the 4E 'Warriors' tend to hurl at fans of older Editions gave the idea I'm a 'Warrior' too. If so, my bad.(As I said, I MIGHT buy 5E, but if the supplements are good, like 2E's I'll buy them!)<br />As for my use of 'Wizbro', a common jape at the conglomeration of Wizard and Hasbro, it's kind of like my default usage of Wintel to describe PCs, and nothing more than that. They're hardly 'sinister', they're just Business As Usual.(As was TSR, and most other RPG companies, honestly. The 'point' of my Edition War post. And as for Paizo needing to save the RPG community from anyone or anything, I don't see how I suggested that at all.(I'm not a Pathfinder guy. I like the company's attitude toward the fans, that's all.) I merely mentioned they, along with the Old-School Gamer crowd, made Wizbro stand up and take notice, seemingly resulting in the open playtest and reconciliationist policy of 5E(which is about the money, sure, but also I believe a desire to have that supposed unity off the early 80's era of RPGs.). I ended my post with a call for civility and more adventures from WOTC, 5E or no. I'm fine with buying stuff from them, or Paizo, or Goodman or whoever.<br /><br /><br />Thanx again to Mr. Winter for hosting this discussion.velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-54408074209770089262012-01-15T14:11:36.086-08:002012-01-15T14:11:36.086-08:00Gamma World was awesome and honestly a big leap fo...Gamma World was awesome and honestly a big leap forward, and if they used Primary/Secondary mutations as a jumping-off point for DDN, I'll be really happy. I was super-impressed how fun and easy it was to roll up some dudes with people who had not talked about playing GW before that night and be playing within a half-hour.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412531855619474442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-60231217197144746112012-01-15T14:01:56.903-08:002012-01-15T14:01:56.903-08:00There is a dark humor in such a well written artic...There is a dark humor in such a well written article calling edition warriors to stop descending into people shouting you down and claiming that the fault lied entirely in 4e and 4e fans, or that "Wizbro" is some sort of sinister evil force that Paizo needs to save us from.ProfessorCirnohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573414676286372042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-21757842963989967962012-01-15T11:40:11.284-08:002012-01-15T11:40:11.284-08:00'I think Wizards of the Coast created the subj...'I think Wizards of the Coast created the subject of gamer arguments, but didn't create the arguments themselves.': <br /><br /><br />They fired quite a few LARGE salvos in the Wars.(Initially just to show some 'attitude' in an era where this 'confrontational' style was seen as 'cool', from what I can tell. And later on, they seemed to feel that they were being disparaged unjustly.[Which, in some cases, they were.]) WOTC's 'sins' are well known, as thy have occurred largely in an age where information rarely, if ever, disappears.(Though it an be 'spun' to advantage...) <br /><br />However.... <br /><br />As to 'creating the Wars':<br />TSR struck first, from everything I've seen secondhand/experienced.(They were the progenitors, and they were a bit proud of it!) Then their offspring(Chivalry and Sorcery['more realistic' 'Medieval' D&D], Arduin Grimoire[more wild and brutal D&D], Tunnels and Trolls['less expensive' and 'easier to understand' D&D|actually STATED by Ken St. Andre in his Troll Talk preface to the 1st Edition of the game|], Runequest[more 'mythic' D&D] ; D&D 'editions' all[see the stats in particular; most had levels, hit points, etc....]) proliferated, and TSR attempted to prove they were the Originators and the Imitators(great games all) were unnecessary(when there were GOOD reasons for the simulacra) and/or inferior(which they were not...). With TSR's desire to keep the mantle of The Only Fantasy Roleplaying Game That Mattered(and possibly the only RPG that 'mattered' period), and their fears of 'splitting the market', it was probably inevitable. <br /><br />Then there was TSR's(EGG and crew) constant revisions of the game, which resulted in an intra-D&D 'Edition War'(which MIGHT have been avoidable, I don't know.) And of course, that series of suits between TSR and Dave Arneson.<br /><br />Also, TSR suing GDW for Gygax's Dangerouous Journeys, buying SPI and essentially burying Dragonquest, falling out with Judge's Guild, trying to shut down Mayfair's RoleAids, etc...<br /><br />It's quite depressing, really. TSR AND WOTC(now owned by Hasbro[a company with its own mean streak when it comes to competition]) bear a LOT of that responsibility. As do some of the parent companies of the D&D knockoffs(not the ones who simply defended themselves against TSR's onslaughts), who essentially marketed their games as D&D, but 'better'. And, of course, the fans who constantly harp about which games(and their various versions/revisions) are 'superior'.<br /><br /><br />In the old days people used to say that Tunnels & Trolls was silly, D&D unrealistic, RuneQuest weird, RoleMaster was 'ChartMaster', and so on.<br /><br />Absolutely true, but since I was responding to a post about the D&D Edition Wars, I didn't see the need to mention the the inter-game rivalries(often amongst closely related RPGs) in the hobby(existing from early on, if you're familiar with RPG history.).<br /><br />Thanx for your response!velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-541900589888293585.post-40762745123597762672012-01-15T02:57:31.525-08:002012-01-15T02:57:31.525-08:00@velaran:
"Less insulting each other over pr...@velaran:<br /><br />"Less insulting each other over preferences in play style/favored mechanics would be good, as well."<br /><br />I think Wizards of the Coast created the <b>subject</b> of gamer arguments, but didn't create the arguments themselves. In the old days people used to say that Tunnels & Trolls was silly, D&D unrealistic, RuneQuest weird, RoleMaster was 'ChartMaster', and so on.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.com